sUAS News Podcast — 2014-09-17
Transcript
Music Welcome to the next installment of the FQAS News Podcast. Here is where we interview newsmakers and discuss the news and application relevant to the global unmanned technology community. I am your program host, Pat Steegan, and let's say hello and welcome to our co-host, Mr. Gene Robinson.
Hello, Mr. Egan. Boy, I tell you what, the life of a rogue warrior is interesting and I sure am glad to be home. I hear you, my brothers.
Things are heating up. But usually this is where I jump in and say, what news stories did you see this week and what's of interest and blah, blah, blah. We're going to change that to what news stories were you in this week, my brothers?
Yeah, I would say that we did get a little bit of exposure this weekend and it was a very interesting four days. But first and foremost, it's a little bit on a more serious note here. I think that I'd like to ask for all our listeners to take a moment and think about Christina Morris, the 23-year-old young lady that we were looking for in Plano, Texas that we were unsuccessful on, but she's still missing. And her family could sure use your thoughts and fears at this point and some positive vibes.
But other than that, I've got to say that it was a precedent-setting weekend. And if you watched any of the major news outlets, unfortunately, a mug was on there. And we were talking about using the NNAT craft in a search and rescue operation. And it was just, it was a bit of a trying time, but man, that was a lot of progress made.
Well, it was great. I have to tell you. Okay, so I went to, I was in Washington, D.C. last week.
And I was at the AUVSI headquarters for the FAA Beyond Visual Line of Sight Committee, which we'll get to. During the course of the meeting, there is Gene Robinson and Tim Miller on headline news. And it was great because I could point it out right during the meeting. We're all sitting around the table with the FAA and all the other 25 different groups that are participating.
And I'm like, there he is right on the TV right now. There is Gene Robinson, Client in Search, RFP Search Services, right now. And some people were like, oh, you know what?
But whatever else. I mean, it was, let's say, opportune timing. It was great. And I think that, you know, there's a lot of, I know you've been at this for such a long time.
And we actually talked about that a lot before the show started. And, you know, it's been a long journey. But the search was a little different. And maybe you can kind of give us the details about how it was different.
Well, sure. That's easy to do. Well, I think as most people, most of our listeners know that we've been doing a lot of work with NIST, National Institute of Standards and Technology, on the fire research. And to be quite honest with you, this entire operation this past weekend was a NIST operation.
It was NIST equipment. It was flown under the NIST COA. And it was flown by NIST personnel. It was in conjunction with the Plano PD.
And, of course, the search was directed. There was a search going on and being directed by Tech Infect Search. So that's really the mechanics of how this happened. Tim Miller had requested the unmanned aircraft and wanted to fly them.
And the FAA stepped up to the plate. I've got to tell you, I was very impressed with the speed and how expeditious they were about getting things through. We supplied them with the information that they needed. Al Bruner there at the Fort Worth FISDO and Chris Doherty with the FAA were there and constantly was asking, what else can we do?
What else can we get you? What else, if this is what you need to get going?
And actually having to go through all the permissions to get permission to use the aircraft was a big part of it. But when it's all said and done in the final analysis, the FAA issued us an emergency COA and less than 24 hours. Well, I just want to stop you for just one second because I do want to, you know, you just gave credit to some people for doing a good job and I just want to highlight that, you know, that we also give credit to people when credit is due, not just complaining and whatever else.
I think that that's great. I will say that, you know, you kind of alluded to this, but the impression about the COA process for this search after everything that has been in the news, you think we kind of, we may have turned the corner and people understand a little bit better what you're trying to do?
You know, I do. I think that the agency is aware of the benefit that unmanned aircraft can bring to, you know, searches and first responders and that sort of thing. They're really making an effort to do what they can to get that capability into the appropriate hands. I mean, they're not going to, you know, pass it out.
You're not going to be able to go by a DJI and say, you know, hey, I'm here. I'm ready to go fly. You're going to have to be, you know, at least proficient and at least have a little bit of experience under your belt before they're going to let you do that. But the key is, is they looked at it and did a risk assessment and they got it done.
And they got it done in a really timely fashion. And to be, I'll be the first to admit that you have knocked me out of my chair with feather when they came back and said that it was approved because truly I did not expect it because of past experience. But I was very pleasantly surprised. And we mobilized and put a lot of equipment on the road and drove the five hours up there to Plano.
And we had four days. They gave us four days to do what we needed to get done. And we had one weather day in there where the head front come through, kind of a rare September front. And it actually got cold in Texas in September, believe it or not.
But we, yeah, and then we had to get in there. Cold, cold day. Okay, that's pretty good. I like that one.
But no, it was a precedent setting weekend, I think. And it showed that there was a willingness there to work with a properly accredited agency to get it done. So my hats off to them. The guys at the FISDO were great.
The guys at DC were great. And they turned it around. So hats off to them and kudos to the agency for, there you go, right there, we said it. Good words to them.
Yeah, the FAA, good job. Now it's funny, you talked about being qualified and the DJI and all the rest of that. And it's funny, not funny, but we had a woman go missing here in my neighborhood. And there's a pretty large rail yard close to my house.
It's like fields. And I came home from the DC thing and my wife's like, oh, you know, this woman's missing, you know. And I just, you know, maybe we need to go do this. Could you fly over?
All right, I'll go out here and fly. And I'm not the coordinated effort. I'm my own air boss, all the rest of that. But I just said, you know, it's not as easy as just watching the drones, you know.
But so, okay, I'm going out there. I got my DJI. I'm flying the drone around. I'm taking video.
And, you know, I'm having regrets for giving away my signed copy of your book at the expo. Because I'm like, it's a little bit more to here. And it's late in the afternoon. And I know you're already thinking about some of the issues with doing this.
So I'm out there flying around and I'm doing it. And late in the afternoon, of course, watch the video. And all of the long shadows and how much garbage is out there. And, you know, tumbleweeds and what the person is wearing last time they were seen.
You know, of course, a lot of people like to wear like, you know, dark colors and yada, yada. So I go out there. I do that. I'm looking at the video, you know, and taking screenshots and zooming in and all the rest of that.
And it's just like a zillion possibles. Yep. So I'm like, okay, well, you know, again, I know that you've been doing this for so long. You guys know what to look for, false, you know, positives and the rest of that.
And I go out there and I found, you know, garbage and t-shirts and tumbleweeds. And, you know, I did find the homeless camp. Okay. That I passed on to the police.
We've got props on here. But I was not very successful in finding anything else. Roughly the woman had been found alive elsewhere. But I did want to make that point that I know that there's a lot of people that are out there in the social media sphere who think that, you know, anybody with a, you know, thousand dollar UAV can go out and do search and rescue with a drone.
And I delved into this subject. But man, you know, even with what I know, I was like, I know this is going to be an exo impossible. Any thoughts on the amateur search and rescue guy?
Well, you know, it's commendable. Everybody wants to give back to the community. And that's a commendable thing to do. And I encourage it.
But, you know, you've got to encourage it in the right way. You need to go out there and you need to hook up and establish those ties with your local law enforcement agency or your first responder or your search team. And, you know, you need to educate yourself first. And it's not just a matter of knowing how to fly an aircraft.
There's significantly more to that. And that's the part that you need to educate yourself on if you're truly going to be serious about trying to do search and rescue with unmanned aircraft, because there's an interface with the instrument command. You've got to deal with the police force, the local police force. You get to deal with searchers on the ground.
There's just a heck of a lot more to it than being able to control your aircraft and fly it over a field. But with that said, you know, it's really serious about it. And it does take a commitment. You have to commit to it because it takes some work.
But I highly recommend it. You'll find nothing more gratifying than going out there and making a difference with your unmanned aircraft. I've got to get another copy of the book because, you know, again, when you deal with professionals, I mean, you know, and I know in the book, you know, it talks about how to effectively, you know, view the imagery and all the rest. I'm over here.
I could have missed, you know, all kinds of stuff. And again, I mean, I wasn't like, hey, I'm out here, you know, calling the media. I'm going out here to look for somebody, blah, blah, blah. I'm just giving it a shot.
But there's a lot to it. And I think that you've given some good advice on that. And so going out on your own and trying to do this stuff is very difficult. And again, the equipment that I'm using, you know, good, battery level stuff.
But your search is a plain old thing. Do you want to talk about the system that you guys were using?
You weren't using your system, were you? No, no, no, we weren't using our system. NIST has the full kind of description of what the system is and how it was being used. And I'd encourage folks to go there to their website.
It's nist.gov and look at the WUE research. But I can tell you that they were the MLB Superbats. And the MLB Superbats, Steve Morris's aircraft is a capable aircraft. It flies for a long time.
Of course, you know, we weren't flying it for the durations that it could have been flown for. We're fairly short, covering, you know, a couple of square miles at a time. But that's the way you conduct a search. So, you know, it's a matter of just moving about, setting up, launching, you know, getting the data, coming back down, breaking down, moving to the next station, and doing it until you're done.
You know, that's a very simplistic way of doing it. But, you know, the Superbat is a sophisticated system. It uses just the Piccolo, the CloudTec Piccolo. And, you know, there's a learning curve for that, even.
Yes, yes. It's a very capable system. I've experienced that part of the project that I was on for Navy. You know, so this was all in visual insight.
Of course, all visual insight. We've kept it at 400 feet. And, you know, observers, the full crew, so, and there were, you know, I'm happy to report that the entire time we were out there, we never even came close to general aviation. That we maintained separation.
And it was just, it was flawless. The entire four days, except for the weather, the operations was just flawless. And it worked perfectly. It worked exactly as designed.
Now, do you think, now you talked about having to break down, move around, and do all of these other things, but is there an efficiency case for beyond visual line of sight operations? Well, certainly there would be. And I recognize the risks of going beyond line of sight. But, for example, there would have been two areas that we could have flown in one flight if we had had beyond line of sight capabilities or permission.
And it would have been easy to cross over the next field and do it rather than having to pick up and move the way we did. I could certainly see the argument there. However, I can see the risk involved. Because when that bird gets out to your line of vision, you really have to stay focused on it and make sure you have separation between aircraft.
And it gets kind of intense there when it gets out that far. So I get the fact that, you know, you get out past that line of sight, you're not going to be able to de-conflict the colors to it. And it would be up to the other aircraft to stay out of your way. Now, that being said, if you had a TFR or something like that where you could close the airspace, then absolutely, you know, you'd go for it, keep the aircraft out.
But, you know, that's not something that they typically do for a search for an individual. Now, that could change. You know, of course, everybody remembers Steve Fossett and that sort of thing. There was a lot of discussions made during that one.
Of course, he was a very wealthy man and gained quite the aviation buff as well. But, you know, I get it. The beyond line of sight would have been nice. We could have probably done it in half the time.
But closing the airspace would have been problematic. Well, you know, that's kind of what I contend. You know, there's the issue still with the visual line of sight envelope and then the beyond visual line of sight envelope. And some of the things that you just hit on, and we're going to have to talk off-line because I'm going to need some information from you.
But some of what you just hit on is actually what I think either envelope or even between the envelopes really, where it really matters. There is an economy scale in these envelopes. You know, you were talking about the time that you could have flown or the areas that you could have flown. But there was a lot of time spent breaking down, you know, I guess putting everything on the end of the vehicle and then moving to the next stop and setting up and getting ready to fly and all the phone calls and everything else that's required to do.
And that's actually, let's say, eroding the benefits of using the technology. And I think that that's going to overlay on a lot of other industries. You know, where does the efficiency get eroded to the point that it's just no longer worth using the aircraft?
And that's the thing that's always kind of, you know, concerned to me about the airspace integration effort. If you put too much owners regulation on there, you restrict where you can fly or how you can fly or whatever else, it just gets to the point where it doesn't make sense anymore. And the analogy that I kind of use is the part 135 operator and let's say the aviation company shall lays on the flight line at either the Paris Air Show or the Farnborough Air Show. Somebody's making a lot of money in this aviation field, but it's usually not the guy out there on the end.
And maybe that's due to overregulation possibly. I don't know. There could be other issues there. But that's what that's going to, I guess.
The one thing that did become very evident in this entire process that we went through is that a lot of that logistic risk and the logistic effort could be mitigated by using a smaller system. Obviously the logistics for a system like the SuperVet are more involved and demand quite a bit more. However, if you had gone to something, say the Spectra, where you could go and you could fly a square mile very quickly, land, just throw it in the truck
and then move over to the next spot and fly it, then that kind of mitigates that whole thing about when is your diminishing return realized because it would have been very easy to move from spot to spot with a smaller system that had less demands placed on it from a system standpoint.
Right. But I think this also shows a good example of kind of tying back into the regulatory side of it. I mean, you used the NIST equipment and the NIST COA and all of the, let's say, the NIST overhead. And so you had to use the NIST aircraft, which were probably a little bit of an overkill for visual line of sight.
Correct? I would agree with that assessment. So if you were able to get the COA and fly the Spectra and use the overhead from the search services or whatever, then probably with a lot less overhead and time and money and transportation and all the rest of that, that's pretty much what you're saying in that show. Certainly.
I mean, you can scale it, scale up or scale down. And that kind of circles back to exactly what I'm saying. And again, I don't want to beat or belabor the point here, but it can, the risk of flying the Superbattles, the Superbattles are great aircraft, you know, and all these are good company and all the rest of that. But, you know, really it could have been done with the Spectra, which just weighs a lot less kinetic energy thing and a lot less of a I would call hazard because of its construction and whatnot.
So it's kind of a, it's really like you step back and you look at the case study. It's kind of bizarre. But I think that things like this, you know, I mean it would be excellent for you to write, I could test you with a bunch of work, but it would be excellent for you to write up a report about what we're talking about here. You know, and say, hey, this is kind of what's going on.
And I think I'm going to task you with something for the committee work. And I do want to talk about the Beyond the Visual Line of Site Committee that the RCAP was invited to join. And that was the reason I was in Washington, D.C. last week.
That's right. You know, we were sworn to secrecy again, which seems a little silly to me, but, you know, that was the rules. I don't know. It just never, it really hasn't made any sense to me that, you know, public rulemaking has got to be private.
You know, people keep talking about the proprietary data, but, you know, I, sorry, you know, I haven't really seen anything use-wise or application-wise that someone else couldn't learn to do on their own. You know, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. What do you say about that?
I know. Use-wise, there could be a lot of studying to be done on that. There could be, but I'm, you know, I think people, there's a lot of confusion. There is a big disconnect.
I would almost, from my observation, I will say that I don't think that anybody has a high altitude. What's going on with the airspace integration process in the U.S.?
I don't feel anybody's got a good hand on that. There's too many different projects going on, too many different, let's say, studies and work, products being worked on that other people know nothing about, you know, and I see this repeatedly. You know, the RTCAs work in a way on stuff again, but it happens all the time, and they move to the big stuff almost immediately. The big stuff to come in and control what they're working on, you know, is definitely DOD legacy vendor stuff, you know, and I keep saying, you know, where am I going to buy this stuff?
Am I going to get a surplus on eBay? You know, I can't, you can't buy it. So what is even the point?
There's no point to it. I will say that the other groups on the committee, that there's about 25 different groups, energy, real estate, mapping, engineering, you know, delivering of packages, all the rest of that stuff. All of, and I said in the room that the RCAPA membership, everybody is all, we've already, our members have already done it or are doing it or have done it in the past. Everything that everybody in the room wants to do.
Not a really good understanding of how these operate and again, the economy of scale that we kind of talked about. Some people, I would say the uses, there's some easy, you know, there's some low hanging fruit there, and then I think that there is some stuff that's going to be really hard. The delivery stuff, I just, the problems that need to be solved is just too much. I mean, you're going to write code to avoid, you know, trees and power lines and trucks and cars and houses and antennas and airports and, you know, trains and kids and dogs and I mean, it's huge.
And then I don't think people really understand how the old aviation thing works. But I don't want to. Well, even from a more practical sense of this thing, if there were copters coming in and dropping off your DVD, I know I'm down here from, you know, the land of the South and hey, y'all watch this, but you know, the first mother that had a DVD land on his front porch, he'd be standing there with a blanket ready to throw over that thing when it came over because he was going to have one. They'd lose the first million, probably.
I thought that captured me. Yeah, and then I could see it's a taxidermist, you know, on the wood background. You've got the deer, the elk, the different ones over the fireplace, the drone, the cap. The good points are we've got the one thing that's good about tech, and as I kind of alluded to in my presentation at the Expo 2013, I guess, it'd be good to get tech in here.
You've got a lot of energy and money. We're at a good point probably getting major media attention. Everybody's interested in what Google and Amazon are doing. Lots of new energy, boatload of money.
I will say that there is a total, you know, I mean big time anti-DOD, and it's not just apprehension, so nobody wants any part of it at all. They don't want any association, nothing. And then also that would probably go also from the people I've talked to with the police. Nobody's really interested, and I've got to be honest.
I think it would be a great tool for the police, but that's just such an uphill battle. I don't want to get bogged down in that one. They really need a lot of help. They need some good PR.
You know, I just, I don't have the bandwidth, money, time, whatever to deal with that issue, and that's kind of one of the ethos behind the Small and Minute Systems Business Expo is we just don't even want to go there. That's all we want to do. And that's what everyone else is interested in is making a profit. So I will probably be typing some stuff up on the ARCAP or site.
I have my own ideas on how we will approach the tasking, but it will definitely be from a business standpoint of view and that economy scale that we kind of talked about, the different aircrafts and what we can do in the different operating envelopes. And that was one thing. It really doesn't even matter what the definitions are, if they exist or not. That's kind of what you're going to need with different size systems to make any money, you know?
And I kind of lose to that. You know, if you have to spend, we get the DOD, let's say, product pipeline, how do you write a million dollar or a $5 million, $55 million, $300 million system into your business plan?
And even for companies like Amazon, you're going to have to deliver a lot of DVDs to get your return on investment on that. We'll see. We'll see what happens as that comes along. I think that's going to take a while, so we'll probably be hearing about that in the future.
The other thing I wanted to talk about was Gary put on down there in South Africa, conservation R-PAS 2014. And if you haven't seen that, you need to look at the videos because everybody down there, like Gary's been tracking cats, jackals, and other animals, and have been using really low cost systems to do some conservation work. And there's other people I've presented that are following Birds of Prey and other things like that. I think we're going to add that to the SUS news, let's say, symposium mix.
And that'll be another thing to watch out for. Again, all of the videos are available on the internet like we do with the Small On Man Systems Business Expo, so you can kind of learn, again, empirical type of uses and knowledge. That's not guesswork or people making stuff up and trying to bring you the good stuff here. I don't know if you caught that, Gene.
Did you catch any of those videos? Yes. I started watching them after we got back last night, or the night before last, and haven't gotten caught up yet, though. I hear you.
It's been kind of busy. But anyway, I think this is a good show, informative. Again, thanks for your time, sir. I know we've all been busy and the podcasts are getting slotty, but hopefully here in the coming winter, we'll have a little bit more time to spend more time on the podcast and Drone TV and all the rest of the other offerings that we have.
Yep. So again, thank you for your time, and we'll see you on the next show. Okay, sounds good. Take care.