UAS News Podcast — 2012-07-23
Audio not available on SoundCloud — full transcript below.
Transcript
Alright, welcome to Back to School, the series of podcasts highlighted by the different academic programs currently available to people wanting to get into the unmanned technologies field. Today's installment is we'll be speaking with Ben Trapnel from the University of North Dakota, JDO School of Aerospace Science. I am your host, Patrick Egan. I want to extend a warm welcome to our guest, Ben Trapnel.
Hello, Ben. Hey, how are you doing today, Patrick?
Pretty good, pretty good. Another sunny day in California and I can't complain. How can anybody complain?
I'm telling you, it's great out here. Anyway, so basically what we're doing here is I want to give people kind of an idea of what's available out there at the different universities for education in the unmanned technologies field, as I had stated. I get a lot of calls and emails from folks and then also face to face, I interface with a lot of people and they're always asking, they're saying, you know, I really want to get into this field. I'm interested in learning more.
Where do I turn? You know, and for me, it's kind of a difficult question to answer because it depends on what you want to be. You know, some people, well, you know, I think I want to fly global hawks and some people, well, I want to open a business and other folks are just like, I want to get in somehow and mainly the only on ramp to this field. It was either, you know, Iraq or Afghanistan and not everybody's cut out to spend 12 months in a camping in the mountains.
But anyway, so that's kind of the impetus for this and, you know, I guess we'll start out. Ben, could you give us a little bit of a bio on yourself, how you got here and well, and not to the show, but how you got here at University of North Dakota?
Sure. I graduated in 1978 from the U.S. Naval Academy and immediately started a career in aviation, designated a naval aviator, flew E2C Hawkeyes for a few years, deployed with them and then went back down to Corpus Christi, Texas to be a flight instructor. I was a flight instructor for a few years, left the Navy after my wife's death and went to work for Burnside Out in Port Aerospace as a simulator and systems instructor and then came to the University of North Dakota to teach aerodynamics and aircraft systems.
In August of 2005, we got involved, a colleague of mine and I got involved with the FAA and the Department of Defense to do some research regarding UAS. First one was a regulatory background check, if you will, of all of the FAA regulations, about 8,500 of them to see which applied, which didn't, which could or which might to unmanned aircraft systems. We had an $11 million research project with DOD to take a look at ground-based risk mitigation strategies for sense and avoid and flight of unmanned aircraft systems in the National Airspace System.
Through that research, we came to the conclusion that unmanned aircraft systems is here to stay in what form I don't think anybody quite knows right yet, but we think it's going to be the future of aviation and we wanted to be well positioned for that. For more than 45 years, the University of North Dakota has been involved in manned aviation education with degree programs in flight education, commercial aviation or traffic control, aviation management, airport management and aviation technology management.
We thought that the unmanned aircraft systems degree would be an excellent fit. That's basically a little bit about me and the University of North Dakota. Yeah, now when you were talking about the applicable FARs, you were working with Doug Marshall on that project, correct?
Yes. Yes, well I served on the small UAS arc with Doug and I remember when Doug was starting that project and he's like, yeah, we're going to go through the, and I'm like, good luck, buddy. I hope you're not busy for a couple of years. That's going to be a big one.
It was an extremely daunting project and the paradigm that Doug came up with in they applied, they didn't apply, they could apply depending upon your interpretation or they could apply depending upon a little bit of modification to the regulations basically allowed us to go through them with a great deal of consternation and making sure that we had thought of just about everything we could have. And like
I said, it was about 8,500 different regulations and TCOs and you name it. We looked at everything we could and came up with a response and submitted that to the FAA and it's amazing how many times that thing comes back up with the results that we had.
Sure, there's probably a hole or two in it but it provided a great place to start. And was that ever published for public consumption?
I believe it was. I don't have the actual document in front of me but I've got a copy of it with an FAA document number on it. Yeah, I'd be interested in getting a copy of that. I've been having a hard time getting to sleep lately and the FAR book is just not doing it for me anymore.
Well, that one certainly will. I used to say that about the FAR book to the FAA. They're like, well, you know, it's all in there. Just read that sucker.
Anyway, we'll take that offline but I'd definitely be interested in getting a copy of that. And my hat's off to you guys for that one. I mean, when Doug was describing that, I was like, oh man, I'm making my head hurt just thinking about that. A lot of those regulations and whatever, we could loosely call them subjective.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Well, you know, the FAA likes to leave things sufficiently ambiguous, I guess, so that they can make sure it works in the way they would like. But it's something that everybody – see, that's one of the issues that, again, being what it is, needs to be brought out in a strong academically-oriented program.
And that's one of the things that we do here at the University of North Dakota. Well, and I agree with that. I definitely think there's a huge void of, let's say, information in this field. I want to write a book in my spare time.
There's other people that should probably write some books too to put some perspective on this whole process. But that's going to be a show for another time because, you know what, we could do the whole half hour on that, no problem. And I wanted to – I definitely want to get into UND and talk about what you guys are offering, again, for the benefit of prospective students. So, saying that, let's dive in.
Not that the other conversation wasn't good. I like that one. But, okay, so, you know, and you kind of already talked about this a little bit, but I'd like you to expand on the notion of your education philosophy. And I know we've talked about it prior on the phone, tried to get a little feeling of what's going on out there.
But, you know, why don't you tell us what the philosophy is? You know, not too long ago, it used to be that students were looking for some sage on the stage to provide them with all the information they would need to be qualified to go out in the real world and have a job. And, as you know, the world is getting flatter and flatter. And the people that you're competing against are not just the folks in your neighborhood or in your state or even in your own country, but there's folks from all around the world that you're going to have to compete against.
You're going to have to compete against a global market. At the same time, the information that is out there, as you well know, changes so fast. And in the unmanned aircraft systems world is so complex that it's not enough just to know everything. You can't know everything.
And so what we're trying to do is develop and nurture lifelong learners that have sort of an ambition to want to continue learning on their own. And our classes are set up to help facilitate that and to maximize their responsibility as being learners to the maximum extent possible. Our degree program is designed to bridge the gap that exists between the traditional engineer and the traditional operator. Pilots didn't tend to make good engineers and engineers didn't necessarily become good pilots, though there were good on both sides.
What we're trying to do is bridge that gap so that the pilot has more of an engineering background and the engineer has more of an operational background, so that they can meld those two expertise together to create the greatest or to have the greatest possible ability of success in an environment that is more nebulous than coalesced. Yeah, that's not a bad philosophy and I'd agree with that. A few other things that you said in the beginning about the unmanned aircraft thing, it was kind of funny.
Years ago people were like, this thing might just wither and die on the vine and the forward thinkers were like, you're crazy. This technology is here to stay. And I do think that people have realized now that unmanned aircraft are here to stay and not only are they here to stay, they are the future. And the point you just hit on I think is important.
Instead of really just being a pilot, there's the whole system to think about and you don't just hand off from one guy to another. You may have issues that you need to deal with that you're going to have to think about prior to operating these systems. And I think you kind of covered that. It is definitely a dynamic field.
Things change. I mean that's almost mind numbing how dynamic this field is, the technology, the regulations. And it is one of the issues that I have with the regulators. Things are changing so fast.
And if you don't have the people that understand the technology, how do you plan on regulating that? But I don't want to get into that. But I did want to circle back. Go ahead.
Understanding the technology today, as much as we think and we know that these unmanned aircraft are capable of, the maturity of the technology is still quite new. And things are changing so fast. They're so based on the computer technology that is changing so fast that capabilities are changing before they can actually be implemented in a way that the regulators have been comfortable with in the past.
I mean look at how long we dealt with wooden fabric airplanes and then we got into aluminum aircraft, the typical structures turning into stress skin structures, and nobody really knowing how to certify them.
The Starship was a great example of a new technology in fiberglass or composite technology. The aircraft weighed three times more than it had to because the FAA didn't have experience certifying aircraft with that kind of technology. Well today, composites are everywhere. But there had to be somebody first.
And it sort of spelled the demise of that aircraft initially because it couldn't meet the performance standards it proposed or was supposed to provide. It's a new technology and everybody is learning and it's tough with a degree program to make sure that students are as well prepared as they need to be. So the idea of just teaching rote information has got to go out the window and you've got to create
and help nurture a student that when he graduates realizes that this is just the beginning, that he better have his head in the books or on the internet as much as possible to stay up with what's going on.
I agree with that. And the good thing is a lot of people that get into this field are very passionate about this and you're going to have to be passionate about it. I mean so much has changed since I've been involved and I call myself a newcomer. I've only been really at this for about eight years and the change in technology as far as sensors are concerned and miniaturization and what's available has definitely changed.
And I do agree the old model of the regulator saying hey you've got to jump in line behind us here and we're going to regulate this thing. You're regulating six generations ago man. And our competitive edge globally is just eroding before our eyes. But that's another story.
You're going to have to, again, these kids, I think most of them are going to have to come out of these programs like you said with a mix of engineering and operation and a lot of them are going to have to go out there and make their own way in the wilderness. That's kind of what I feel. Right. Well we've got, this is, the University of North Dakota is a medium sized liberal arts university.
So whether you go engineering or whether you go in an aviation program such as ours, you're still going to get a strong background in the arts and sciences that help round out a good education. And included in all that, we're stressing the creativity and innovation, critical thinking and problem solving, communication, collaboration, information literacy, media literacy, information and communications technology literacy, flexibility and adaptability, initiative and self-direction, social and cross-cultural skills, leadership and responsibility and productivity and accountability.
And if you hear in all that not a thing about unmanned aircraft systems, then you understand that unmanned aircraft systems is not the end all. We have to have students that are capable of learning and living in a world that is changing so fast that they can keep up with it. Well, and I'm right on with that one. I mean a couple, last week we did a podcast with the Boca Bearings people and they're running an innovations contest.
And man, everything the dude was saying was kind of what you're saying and also what I'm saying. And I believe that all that what you're saying is going to be something that you're going to need as part of the recipe for the future if you're going to stay in business. You're not going to work for Zenith for 40 years, not happening. You're going to have to get out there and you're going to have to keep evolving.
Your business is going to have to keep evolving. Your business model is going to have to keep evolving the technology. So I totally agree with you there and that makes me feel good to hear that you're saying this too because I think we're out here on the bleeding edge of education. The STEM thing is great.
I keep hearing STEM, STEM, STEM and you know from Boca Bearings, I stole this one too. He's calling it STEAM and he's adding arts in there. And I agree that the creativity from the artist should be injected back in that because there's a lot of people out there. They've you know they're thinking I hate to say outside of the box because it's even beyond that.
But I think that those people are important and even that liberal type of thinking or liberal arts whatever has a place in this field. Well if you have somebody that has a design and let's say they want to build a space shuttle, they're going to plug a bunch of numbers into some computer program and they're going to get something that looks like an ice cream truck and that's exactly what we got. But if you look at if you look at the same time the Russians want to do the same thing, their ice cream truck looks extremely similar to ours.
And it's not necessarily that they copied it. It's just that's the way the numbers popped out. There is more art involved in what we're doing today than just the what the engineering numbers would state. And our students have got to be or our graduates have got to have that ability to think outside the box and outside that rigid engineering process to bring new ideas into a world that like I said is still pretty nebulous right now.
And so the idea that our students or our graduates we hope aren't just the engineers or just the operators but are the leaders of this emerging civil UAS environment. Well I think sometimes it needs free thinkers. I mean I'm going to point to the Horton Brothers, you know the HO229 developers. Those guys were self-taught and the designs that they came up with are still today groundbreaking, stealthy and it was people I think that maybe they weren't trained and they were thinking outside of the box were able to make that leap.
And I think that this technology here affords that. And I'm glad to see other people besides just pilots and engineers get in here and say different walks of life. Well the Horton's weren't constrained by convention. They were not and look what we got, you know, or look what they produce.
Exactly. Outstanding stuff. All right well we kind of wandered off of the list of questions I had for you so we'll kind of come back to that. But what does your school consider for admissions for this program?
Well first of all, at least for this program, for the Bachelor of Science in Unmanned Aircraft Systems, UAS Operations, we require that all our students be American citizens and that they do not hold a dual citizenship. And we got to that point because we were investigated a lot when we were starting to propose this thing by various entities that were concerned about ITAR and ear restrictions. And so right now we're living under that umbrella but we do have opportunities for other types of educational opportunities.
But basically our students are U.S. citizens and they must have an ACT of at least 21 or an SAT, combined SAT of 990 or better. Basically if you want to, if you've done halfway decent in high school and you want to be a part of the UAS program, you can do that. But there's a pretty good, we state up front that there's a lot more technology in this than you would get from a traditional aviation education.
We do both manned and unmanned aviation in our program. So there is, there are physical requirements that a student must, they must be able to get a first class physical. And our students must be able to complete their commercial multi-engine and instrument ratings. Well and that may play into some of the standards in the future.
That is one thing that's difficult with this, with educating people in this field. And I've talked to other universities who want to offer programs but don't and saying, you know, it's just, it's a little too obscure right now because there are no standards. So it sounds like you guys are really covering the bases and we just really don't know what's going to be out there in the future. No, and that's where a good program, and we think we have one, has got to be tied to industry as much as possible to the point where we're there as they're thinking about cutting edge stuff.
So that one, we can, our students could be educated properly. But two, our students have to be ready to, we think, to understand the regulatory and the operational environment that is the National Airspace System. And so we think that having actual experience in that system is the best way to get it. Two, that also makes them more hirable if they decide that unmanned aircraft systems isn't for them when they graduate, but it might be in the future.
They are, they're getting jobs in the manned aviation world. And we've also noticed, which has been a pleasant surprise for us, that the major players out there, and I'll just mention Northern Brumman as one of them, they're very interested in our students that are actually getting their commercial and their certified flight instructor certificates because they want these students to come back to them with unmanned aviation experience and the ability to teach. And so having that background, they look at as being a real plus.
Now, we don't make our students get their CFIs, their certified flight instructor certificates, but we highly recommend it to them. The multi-engine allows them to get their ratings at 190 hours instead of 250. And probably not a bad idea because one of the things that I brought up during my service on the small UAS arc is who is going to be teaching us to fly these unmanned aircraft. And there's so many different, pardon me for a second, there are so many different, let's say, kinds, sizes.
This isn't like teaching people to fly like a single engine aircraft with all the different weight classes and everything. So it's like to the FAA, who's going to be teaching us to fly our own aircraft?
Who's going to be coming up with the tests? Who's going to be certifying this aircraft?
Those are all pretty good questions. You get somebody who doesn't understand the technology and the applications, which is a huge stumbling block on the regulatory side of things. You want to get started on that one. So it's good that these people have an understanding of unmanned technology.
So you are turning out people that will hopefully be able to teach people to fly these in the future instead of getting somebody who's strictly a manned aircraft guy. And it's kind of funny when you talk to people who are, I don't want to put anyone out on French Street, but you talk to people who are pilots of manned aircraft that came over to be unmanned aircraft and they talk about the differences. Well, I don't get that response when the nose wheel hits the paint. I don't get the response through the controls and I'm like, I'm not a man pilot.
I'm an unmanned pilot and that's just not even a factor to me. You know what I'm saying?
There's so many things in the human factors between the man and the unmanned. You really have to have experience in both worlds or at least in the unmanned world to know what you're talking about and what you're doing. So I think that's good. Sure.
It's interesting. We've got Raven, Dragonflyer, ScanEagle, Superhauler. We've modified a couple model airplane telemasters. We've got CropCam that we're flying.
We had an instructor come from AeroVironment to teach a couple of the guys to fly Raven. And within about a half hour, 45 minutes of actually working with the kids, the kids are teaching the instructor how to fly Raven. From a standpoint that the camera on the Raven, one of the cameras sticks out the side. And if you're going to try to look at something on the ground and there's winds, then you have to adjust the way the aircraft flies.
And what's intuitive to our kids that are getting that commercial experience, it took 10 hours to try to teach the Army. Not saying that there's anything wrong, it's just there's a different mindset. There is a different mindset and you're hitting on, I mean again, we could talk another hour about this. But that plays right into, I don't know if you caught the article I wrote for Unmanned Systems Magazine, where I was talking about how the first responders should really get educated on the technologies and the applications.
Because you just hit on something there where that mindset where you're doing something, let's say it's COIN, that counterinsurgency efforts or whatever, that's one thing. Working in an urban environment is going to be something totally different and your students are already picking up on that. So overlaying that asymmetrical thing onto the, onto CONUS operations or operations domestically, may be a little bit of a poor fit. And that's interesting that you brought that up because that's reinforcing what I've been saying for a while.
Now we're almost up to the two minute warning. It happens fast. I wanted to ask you what type of students your program's attracting. We're getting all kinds.
We're getting people who want to be, who initially wanted to be man-rated pilots who are starting to see that there's something pretty interesting about unmanned aircraft. We're getting people that have always been involved with computers and robotic technology who want to get involved with unmanned aircraft. We're getting a lot of retired military who leave the military with a lot of GI Bill capability that want to be fly unmanned aircraft. I just graduated a former 20-year Navy SEAL who is now working for General, or for Customs Border Protection.
We're getting all kinds, and they're extremely enthusiastic. They're out of the box thinkers, which is great. Those that aren't are those that expect to be spoon fed sort of fall by the wayside. But for the most part, we're getting some really, really, really talented people.
And everybody who's been hired, folks that have hired them have raved about their capabilities. So we're extremely pleased with the students that we've got. We've graduated about 30 students, a few more than that. And we've got about 85 to 90 people at any given time within our program.
Excellent. Could you give us the web address?
Yes, I can. I just have to sort of go down to it. Well, the best thing to do is to go to www.aviation.und.edu and then follow the links to the undergraduate degrees and the aviation degrees, and it'll take you right there. All right.
Well, that's good because I'm sure that, like I said, the idea with this is prospective students could listen to these podcasts and decide which program is best for them. I think that today's conversation was excellent. We're right on the same page. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, Ben.
You'll have to decide that at a later date. History will tell us, right?
It will, but I definitely think it was great that you could come on today and put this information out there. Thanks again. Good luck, and we'll talk to you soon in the future. Well, thank you, Patrick, for the opportunity.
We really enjoy what we're doing, and we're hoping that our students are going to be very, very successful in the future. All right. Thanks again. Bye-bye.
Thank you. Bye-bye.