UAS News Podcast — 2013-08-21
Transcript
Is it Wednesday already? Welcome to the next installment of the UAS News Podcast Series where we interview newsmakers and discuss news and applications relevant to the global unmanned technologies community. I'm your program host Patrick Egan and as always let's say hello and welcome to our co-host on time today Mr. Gene Robinson.
Hey Gene. Hi, I am on time and happy to be here Patrick and looking forward to another good show. Well that's what you're going to get here, another good show. Back from Washington DC I had to, that was interesting getting in, flying cross country is such a joy.
You know I know you appreciate it Gene but I especially love it. It's great. 30 hours for 2000 miles, you know hey. What were you doing in DC?
I was at the AUBSI Unmanned Systems 2013 and we did do a show from there and it was pretty interesting. I kind of see what was going on there and I think that kind of leads into this show and this show is RCAPA and I titled it 10 years of RCAPA but actually it's only 9 plus years. We're rolling into year 10 and our guest is RCAPA president, Remote Control Aerial Photography Association president Rick Conley. Rick say hello to the listeners.
Hello everyone. Happy Wednesday. That sounds very enthusiastic. You know one thing I think we need to point out to our listeners is that you may note that there is a real casual kind of air to this show because we have been talking on the phone literally for 10 years and some of the marathon conversations that we had back in 2004, 2005 whenever it was working on the community based standards.
Let me tell you what everybody got to know everybody on the phone. Am I right?
Well and at the ASTM meeting from 2005 I still have that right here under the desk all of the stuff and I'm not going to break it out because you know the thing that really cracks me up is sometimes it will be hard to hear people over the microphones but if you're wrestling any paper it comes through loud and clear. I don't know if you've listened to some of the podcasts. On the plane I got an opportunity to listen to three or four of them. Man are they good except for the paper wrestling and the water drinking.
And the wind noise and the... I think what we're going to have to do is like you know you have to take a Prozac two hours before the deal and we'll get that horn music. And today Gene what do you have to say?
We'll bring it down a couple of notches. Anyway Rick you know a lot of people don't know they're like oh that's that Patrick Egan guy he's a you know grand poob of RKappa but that's not really true. We actually do have a president sometimes handler his name is Rick Conley and Rick could you do a little bio for the listeners who you are where you came from things like that?
Not really long and long winded. I you know went to flight school at Embry-Riddle and worked in the aviation field on turbine engines for quite a while and now make composite parts for not critical composite parts for aircraft and some UAV UAS parts and help people design them occasionally. And back in the early 2000s I was playing around with aerial photography and it was kind of a wild west days where prior to LiPo's coming out it was you know the payloads were heavy and the cameras were pretty rudimentary.
You had a 1.3 megapixel you were living large. And then LiPo's came in and it really expanded the range of what you could do and we were soldering them together and stuff and Gene and I were talking like we really need a voice for the community because we both had aviation experience and we're seeing some things that kind of beat the back gear the hair on the back of your neck curl as far as people that didn't have any aviation background what they were doing flying
right up against the airport you know some of the things they're doing that not really want to repeat you're like whoa we need a voice and if we can have a cohesive group if you will you know just like an ALP day or you know NRA or whatever you know that they have a like-minded group of people with a voice and kind of can come up with ideas.
So we tried to come up with some basic operating guidelines and we went out and got found a company that would write insurance for this which was very difficult at one time and but they kind of went in a different direction than we wanted them to and we're currently talking with some other folks that seem more like-minded and kind of understand it a little better and that's what we were trying to do with the group
and then in 2007 the FAA came out and basically said the commercial operations are illegal so we've been kind of in a screen saver mode and a little frustrated for the last six years trying to figure out how to get the word out and that's what we've spent a lot of time doing people call you up and say I've got 20 grand I want to start a you know X Y Z business flying the UAV whether it's infrared or pictures whatever
and you say like technically it's illegal and we've been frustrated that there really hasn't been a focal point and a well-established something you could point people to with the FAA easily say look this is the rules this is what they're saying and it's been tough I don't know anybody?
Yeah well I mean that's a good synopsis I think you covered a lot of real estate there so what we will do is we will go back and do some forensics on that and let Gene jump in here Gene's usually pretty quiet he has you know he's reserved on this subject so go ahead Gene if you harken back to those early days that Rick talked about that voice that Rick and I envisioned as a part of our cap came to fruition because they got
you Patrick on the park and one of the things that we've discovered and that we are continuing to see is the revolving door that goes on in the FAA Rick and I were just discussing this about how difficult it is to nail one person down or to get you know one person down.
Wacker accountability? I didn't say that I didn't say that thank you Rick but actually you know being able to and this is Rick's idea I mean he really kind of put it together when he said that there is no real focal point I mean sure there are people that we have names that we can talk to and we can numbers that we can call but is that a broad enough source of information sort of indicator for us that the small guy is being taken care of
well I think we know the answer to that but you know our cap I still think that our cap is viable and it's something that you know we need to probably resurrect because a voice right now is something that we really need.
Well you know there's several things I mean you know we didn't I mean I kind of kept up on it and I you know a lot of people were saying oh well it's hard to know what you guys are doing and we tried to do the RCAP a reporter and everybody remembers that and the conference calls that we had with that and it was good but it was a little it was a little loose and fast and we didn't have the readership or the voice that we needed
I felt but it was starting you know we accomplished a lot there were a lot of things that RCAP accomplished but you know Rick is right about the screen saver mode I mean people always say that well you know why did you guys kind of slow down well you know if you're going to interface with the regulator you have to kind of buy off on their policy you can't say oh well you know their policy is BS which it might be
and we're going to scuff law but we want to work with them you don't have any credibility so you got to kind of go with the program so yes was on the arc yada yada you know unfortunately when I had to take that job with the Navy I had asked my commander at the time if I could you know most of it was field work out in the middle of nowhere where you didn't have any car and you must stand yes out in the desert
you didn't know you were in Afghanistan except that I don't think they get killer bees over there but it's kind of just as hot smelt like poo anywhere out in the middle of nowhere and anyway so then I asked the commander I said hey you know I'm really you know in this integration effort and is there any way I could be posted somewhere like at a desk with a landline because I'm doing this and I was excused of moonlighting
and I was like no I'm not really making any money on this and it's kind of important but anyway the work we were doing was really important was a rapid deployment thing so I just didn't fit in I just didn't have time for it and I couldn't do it and wasn't like I didn't want to do it or I just fell off the turnip truck I just had no choice you know you got lives at stake over here and I had to do that
so but as of late you know people are people are starting to realize here's here's the thing and I think that the business exposition what might have really been catalyst for that and talking about it with people is they're starting to understand that this technology can't really serve two masters and what I mean by that is is you have the military side of this what has which has its own part in place
and that's true but it really hit home for me one and Jean you probably remember this from the small unmanned systems business expo is we didn't have any protesters at AUVSI just recently there were protesters and I thought oh hey you should let me talk to them you know I could have talked to these people they're from Berkeley I know it's cooking but then I thought about it really I'd have nothing to say because soon as we try
and march them through the hall and say oh hey we want to do this first gun they see first hellfire missile first you know picture of a guy in camo or a predator or whatever your credibility blows just plain and simple you're done what are you gonna say anyone want to comment on that were you trying to tell us Patrick that there were some automated weapons on display at this show in Washington DC there were a couple of guns
and there were you know wing pods with hellfires on them and whatnot you know for me it's pretty simple it's like you know what I don't really want to fight that perception battle I don't really have time or the resource to fight a perception battle for multi-billion dollar corporations I think you came up with a little slogan the other day what was it how about that no military no police no no controversy is that the one that's it that's it
I think that needs to be a phrase that we kind of hang our happen you might want to put civilian drones in front of it yeah that's not a bad idea I'm working up the new go ahead the military is stuff that you see on the news with drones and all this is a double-edged sword because it shows the military aspect of it which we're not part of obviously and really have no desire to be but it has created an awareness within folks that that there is these capabilities out there of this type of aircraft
I mean not the killing capacity or ability but that they can fly you can go long ranges you can take pictures like just recently on good morning America I think two days ago they were showing drones taking pictures of people on the border down in Nogales I mean that kind of stuff is opening people's eyes and it's creating more of a demand I believe for people wanting to fly unmanned aerial vehicles
in a civilian way in the US.
Oh yeah I concur with that but I mean the difference is it's like you know this industry has been riding those coattails for years and really that's where the money is that's what's driving it. It is that is where the money is but you know the thing is is the let's say those opposed like to use the broad brush of you know you ask most people that are let's say on the other end of the side of the fence here you know what is it what's a drone you know that's that gray bulbous thing with hellfire missiles on it you know looks like a whale okay you know that's not what we want to do.
The other thing that really kind of bugs me and I had called this one too and not being the futurist just objective observer from the community I mean it I'm sure everyone remembers this but you know when the police got a hold of this man they were their own worst enemy that you know I mean look at the privacy thing holy moly I mean people came unglued you know. The sheriff's department in LA they got shut down. Well they got shut down on the FAA but I mean I know right at the time was whining about privacy.
Yeah I mean part of it is people are buying these and don't realize the rules and regulations involved with them and people are worried about their privacy issue. Well there is that and there's another whole other wave of that coming on but the main point with that is is you know the DOD or asymmetrical warfare overlay on to the American public not interested. The next one now this is one thing we talked about it from on last week's show is everyone's going ag
and you know I'm apprehensive about that because people you know oh you know ag is for the little guy well get ready because the big boys are going to roll out they're all going to be precision agriculture and I think you're going to have the same thing you're going to be perceived as putting the asymmetrical warfare overlay onto the farm and the surrounding communities and I don't think that's going to work
you know and so you have to say to yourself okay well who do I you know who do I want to support with my limited dollars for my limited income streams do I want to support the small business community or do I want to support the DOD vendor because basically those are your choices and that's the crux of the biscuit here with the RCAPA and people saying you know I really was counting on RCAPA to carry the torch for us
and this is globally I mean that is one thing RCAPA is known throughout the world as the only small business association that has done anything and I mean I'm not deriding anyone else but you know I mean we we've done a lot of stuff and want to elaborate on that you guys I don't want to be the only horn tutor here well I think one of the things that would help significantly is we might want to explore some way to raise some funds for RCAPA because as we discussed before many times over the three of us it takes money to do the sort of lobbying
and the advocacy that we would like to do and we poured thousands and thousands of dollars into this that people don't say yeah you know it's even I have a tell people it's even larger I don't think that they really understand or grasp the scale when you start talking about trying to change policy and laws at the federal level one thing that the RCAPA really had going for it is we've you know got these 2,000 members that have been hanging in limbo
but when you talk to elected representatives you say hey you know it's the grassroots organization we've got members in every state we're just small business guys you get in here and you know that year is hard to come by however you know that part of the accountability thing is we have not been able to keep up the pressure on the FAA no one holds the FAA accountable and that's that is just the fact that way
you do I 100% agree with that there is no accountability with the FAA to really do anything I don't think there's any pressure I don't think I mean we've been talking to people for six or seven eight years why are you gonna go ahead I'm gonna step on it no I just you know we've all heard you know there's a thing that's going to come out of the national national register that everybody can come in really clarifying this we've been hearing that for eight years it's always
well it's going to come out in spring it's going to come out in the winter and just never does and I don't think anybody's really has their feet to the fire to really address the issue with any clarity well I still about that but I think that's been a big problem well here's comes comes right down to this okay so you have some of the other bigger companies that are doing this and people will tell
you that all of the DOD vendors want everybody in the air and I'm calling horse Pucky on that one however so just put yourself in a position let's just say of you know a big let's say manufacturer the lazy bee just for example you know you think they're gonna go in there and kick somebody in the shins over unmanned aircraft when you have part 121 aircraft that you're selling all over the place and military aircraft
and all the rest of that heck no techno that's not happening so there is no one that I mean even myself I'm like the only that will even ask questions and I'm like label is like this pariah you know and and the questions the hard ones are now you said you needed data and I'm not mentioning any names of who I've asked but I've asked this over the last several years okay you say you need data what type of data do
you need oh my god this guy's a hothead he's a blowtorch I mean that's what we're dealing here we're dealing with something that's kind of a very skewed perspective you have a hierarchy of people who are treated in this office the the unmanned program office or even unmanned integration yeah yeah whatever we're calling the iteration these days are basically more not middle managers but kind of a rock star II they junk it around the world people
you know oh you know whatever they say and no one really let's say ask them any questions or challenges them if they are their back room you know things like that so you don't have anyone really advocating for this so that's that's the role that the are kappa filled and I really think that we we did at one time prior even to you know or getting on the arc we had some traction and some street cred
and we still have that the only thing we don't have is money but I think people are starting to realize that you know advocacy at this level cost money it's gonna cost money you know I don't I can't think of any like business group that doesn't have an advocacy group working for it anybody care to comment on that all right great well it just comes with the territory gene that'll put you on the spot did we lose team yes he just got rude a big
and anyway the this happens technologies grant you know it's just it's come to that point but I do think that you know one thing and you weren't at year Rick but next year I think you're gonna have to put you on the docket to speak at the expo is these aren't even at the expo I think a lot of people thought well you know there's going to be a room full of real estate photographers and I'm not deriding real estate photographers
but there are people in the room that you know have got 20 something million dollars of venture capital ten million dollars five million dollars venture capitalists were in the room people that are doing things I heard from a lot of the people from the bigger companies wanted to come to the show and but they were denied the travel funds but the point with that is that the industry is starting to get serious
and there's people with money and I think you know between the two that the the communities chronic growing up a little bit and they're being a little bit of real money in this deal that but we may have some people that will actually step up to the plate and not grouse you know I mean in the past we had people grouse about a membership fee of 45 or 50 dollars oh you guys will be spending my money
you know why do you want to go there that one makes me sick Jean you were gonna wax poetically here and then you got rid of bacon so give us the give us this this stuff this is why I'll probably never use cellular frequencies for command and control and right there you know we have them online for $200,000 and Jean just you know no I'm teasing go ahead jean no I was I was just going to concur and unfortunately
you know with the with cut off there's been a train wreck because I had to dial numbers and everything and I rebooted so we'll just have to continue on with all right well you know we were just kind of going over the you know the it was difficult for people to put up money and all the rest of that for and I mean in a certain manner I kind of understand because you have a situation you don't have any legal incomes dreams it's a little tough to yeah
but you know it's ironic it's when we were talking to these people a lot of them had tens of thousands of dollars to put into equipment for stuff that was kind of a gray area early on and with whether you could use it but they they didn't they didn't seem to see any validity in and trying to you know help an organization be a voice and help what they're trying to do to be legal and have some good working guidelines that
you know everybody can agree to and work to and I just always thought that was completely ironic I mean I'm sure Patrick and Gina feel that phone calls and we all have oh yeah I've got 20 grand I want to put in a business of 30 grand I mean but they didn't want to put any money towards working to to make sure it was legal I don't know if that makes sense to you guys but I know we've all had this conversation.
It doesn't make sense to me I mean I'm still talking I'm talking now there was again at the SUSB Expo there was lots of venture capital there lots of venture capital and they all went in and they're asking me you know well what you know what companies are good and you know what's bad and I'm like you know realistically you know some money has to be put into the advocacy effort and if we had some money for the advocacy effort
I think we could affect some change I really do I mean I think we could really press these I mean sure we could the the ARCAPA has the archives the information and has done the work to be listened to.
Well the other thing that the FAA has pointed out you know this is years back that they really didn't want to have to police the I don't know for lack of better word the smaller UAVs like what we seem to be dealing most with they didn't have the resources which they don't and they didn't really want to have to be out there with their you know a little tin badge and try and police it because it's too much
and they really wanted an advocacy group like we have or we were involved with and they saw some validity into it but things fell apart again when they came in 2007 it said basically illegal and we had to take the high road when people would ask us that like no you really can't and we were perceived as telling people the sky was falling which was hard on us as a group in general because people like
well why would I want to be part of you if you're telling me what I'm doing is illegal we've been we've been stuck in a catch-22 but we've always taken the high road on us and even prior to this we were we were accused of working with the FA and again it was due to Jean and my back our background we looked at this and go it's it's inevitable it's inevitable that this is going to happen and you know maybe we could head it off to the past where if we're proactive rather than reactive we can do something
but unfortunately we're reactive right now and well we we'd and you know I remember telling people at the time that really I mean if we were more organized and put you know even if I think about it now you know something in the tens of thousands into it back then which we wound up doing over multiple years but really it was there was a concerted effort and I don't want to say that we we totally went it alone because there were people that helped us out there were people that donated money
and facilitated me being on the arc I think that we got screwed on the arc but we could still use that arc to as leverage in the future the and I was going to add a pretty good point well I think the arc opened your eyes to the bigger picture of what was going on and for lack of a better word to see how it was being driven through larger corporations and the little guy if you will the smaller UAVs were not really a major consideration a lot of people really seem to even understand it
and we've even talked to some people with the FAA that says oh yeah I go out to an AMA field and I know what they do out there and that's how you guys fly and we're like you know the AMA doing stunts and you know people flying the plane for for fun is different than somebody with a payload a lot of money invested in an aircraft trying to go up and get a picture it's slow and steady grandma flying like when
I was a flight instructor you know it's like you need to learn how to do grandma landings they're nice and smooth when you take your mom up to a ride typically that's how the type of flying we do you know you're trying to get down with a payload whichever that would be pictures you know infrared images or whatever and that's the perception of what we do I think sometimes people really don't understand it
you know because they'll go to an AMA field or see how people fly I don't know you guys I think Patrick got a taste of that years ago I did I you know and then I was even told on the arc I mean this one was a real hide chaper you know we would go to these meetings all around the country and actually someone from ATO was supposed to see me demo the cracker barrel you know and which the whole deal was just weird
you know as I had to fill out 10 pages of paperwork to get on to the Dryden NASA Dryden facility but I was all stoked about that that you know here we are X plane and the cracker barrel you know and but I couldn't fly there and I had to get an AMA membership to demo a commercial aircraft at an AMA field and a waiver it's just really bizarre and but anyway I spent all this money went out there did it
and and the ATO representative who shall remain nameless said she said I'm not going to waste the taxpayers money to go see an RC aircraft fly I know what they do and I go well you know have you seen me fly have you seen a commercial operation no no no okay great so then in other words I just dropped 2500 bucks to come down here and do a demo for the FAA which you didn't and nobody from your office even witnessed
so who's whose money is being wasted here you know we're trying to regulate this this is the inanity that I've had to deal with and it goes back and I do remember my point now the point was is if we had a little bit of cohesion and money back in 2006 like instead of people attacking us and all the rest of that nonsense we would not and I firmly believe this we would not be in the position that we are today um
I don't think it's too late myself I don't think it's too late for us to resurrect it I don't think it's too late how long it's going to be more expensive just like the new FAA clarification of policy that came out at the end of July kind of cements things more in the direction they're going and making it even difficult for what we're trying to do I don't know if anybody the viewers out there are taking time to read that
I don't know well we posted on that yeah it's worth the people are listening to this kind of not really understanding it it's worth taking the time to go to that news site and click on the link and read that because you know if you have to have a pilot certificate you know second-class medical all those things are making it it very restrictive to do what we're trying to do I think everybody would agree with on that correct no idea should anyone like the number of that document that is in as in november 8900.227
you can google that up on your inner tube and pull it down yourself and take a read it's only 43 pages and it is highly recommended for those folks who are considering getting into the unmanned aircraft business or for people that are doing it because it changes it's a game changer to a certain extent well the thing that it does is every bit of this regulation kind of erodes the viability of the unmanned system because
I mean you know even you know we talk about the ag thing I mean people are all over the map with this you know I just got to get a picture of farmer brown's wheat and I'm in you know I'm going to make two thousand dollars a day and yada yada yada bring the interpreters out of the woodwork it does yeah okay I'd like to make just a little statement here about something very telling in the document and specifically it's item 11.a.2
and I'm just going to throw this out there this is for airworthiness certification it's what you would need to do to get your aircraft in the air and the examples that they cite and I'm going to give you there's four of them I'm going to give you all four of them the first one is the Department of Defense DOD handbook mil HDBK-516B for airworthiness certification criteria the second one Air Force Policy Directives Aircraft Airworthiness Certification 62-6 the third one Army Regulations 70-62 on aircraft systems
and then last but not least Naval Air Systems Command Instruction now tell me military is there I'll just tell me who is doing the influencing on this now they did say I will say that this is examples of acceptable policy criteria that they include but are not limited to but did they mention one civilian standard did they even say that there was one that you could look at no they are regulating by making it
so onerous for the small guy I mean I got part of the arc thing I mean I had called that one years ago like we talked about last week the you have the type certifications for commercial ops for the in situ scan eagle and the av puma and that was exactly what I said was going to happen and they're going to take all of that nice program of record DOD stuff rubber stamp it run it through and these guys are going to fly
so that leads us back to this full circle to the reconstitution of the r kappa because at the time the standards and stuff are starting to gel and people may remember when I was talking about the old Hail Mary play now we're going to run out of time this all these standards are going to be cockamamie everything is people are going to be pulling stuff out of the sky and hurrying up to try and get something for these congressional mandated deadlines that's exactly what's happening
and that stuff's starting to gel up and if we don't get back into the standards effort and and and like you know stuff the canary in the coal mine you are going to be stuck making and flying the the two aforementioned products and so everything you may well you know I've here for everything you need to fly for scanning if you needed one is probably around a million bucks and then the puma system everything if
you were going to buy that you would probably be about a half a million bucks for system you get several planes in a ground station however it is a deal and the only problem with that is is you're you know when you when you inject that price tag into the cost of sales you're going to be better off flying the 172 and doing it and we know that that already doesn't work so you do the math are those available to civilian individuals or no they're not could
you go knock on their door and say here's my half a million I want to put them out or no I don't know you know that is an interesting point I didn't know if you bring it up now those are considered classified right so okay so the specs are built around military aircraft and even if you wanted to it sounds like they'd be very difficult to get into get one if you could even afford it let me just give an example
now I came by a wing and and I'm trying to you know discern what the price is on a wing just the wing what do you mean by wing you need to be clarified for one of the aircraft talking about yes okay and so I came by this wing and I'm trying to figure out how much a new wing would cost because it's broken but I mean I asked that question and I will tell you that highly surprised that I was able to even find a wing at all
and then you know trying to ask for pricing was a whole other thing there was no I mean I can't buy a wing so the point I'm trying to make with that is exactly you're saying that these are military systems you can't I can't buy parts I can't get anything I can't get prices I can't get anything so is that really going to be a viable commercial system universities getting excreting that they're actually being given surplus by the military
well that's that's how oh a lot of fun for that no can't get that either but in a lot of the federal groups that are flying them usgs no and the rest are getting freebies from military surplus so you can't you still can't go out and buy one and even if you could like jean said most these are kind of classified systems or controlled systems that I've asked before for copies of the manuals and the specs
and whatnot no way jose so I don't even I don't even know how any of that is even working that's a good question jean interesting little catch 22 that may have just popped its head up there even though they are certified as commercial you can't buy one one yeah I did ask kind of giving them a monopoly in this field what if their specs are being written for that aircraft give or take a little I mean
now I know we're taking some liberties but you know that type of aircraft has already had the certifications it's already had the testing guns got it the manuals it's got the part manuals there are foots in the door somebody like say when jean was building aircraft would yours meet these specifications do you think jean your wing I don't have an 800 dollar hammer to use on it so probably not well even larger that is exactly what else
so technically would that say that your aircraft wouldn't be viable in the nas I mean I'm just asking technically that is correct now when I when I was still a part of the ASTM thing you know they were talking about manuals I said okay that's great we got the standard what are the manuals going to look like well they'll be manuals you'll have to write some manuals you know and I'm like okay are they going to look like the ones for the Piper Cub they're going to look like f-18 somewhere in between what are we talking about here
and we couldn't get any consensus on that and I had said well you know we need some sort of boilerplate pdf that a guy can fill out you know Joe bag of donuts you know aircraft name the donut hole you know yada yada and so they would all be the same in uniform oh yeah we got to do that you know Egan's right so I've since left that for we know why because I wrote an article about it but my point with that is is
so there is no small business representation on any of this and what you're going to have is that military manual that or those specifications that Gene laid out so you get a copy of the article you wrote what's it at the suasnews.com you can search for ASTM basically I'm talking about the article when I left ASTM because they were not going to make the standards public to I mean that was oh okay
okay I didn't know if you were trying to get folks where to go when you're talking about this where they could go see it if they want to verify well and that is exactly one of the reasons that that I left you know we can't I don't think it was if you weren't it wasn't a square game and so this deal that back to the Hail Mary is going to be a non-square game I'm going to pull this in these are going to be the regs these are going to be the regs for 10 years or 15 years
and you're going to have to deal with it if you want to operate a legal business now you know in the news and usually we do that first but we didn't I don't know if you saw the video or you guys saw the video but there was some guy at a wedding and he basically was taking wedding photography and he flew his quadcopter into the groom's face oh yeah just beelines right for the dude's melon so you know that's cool some people like no no it's not
I know well I'm being facetious but the thing where that is is now so that was obviously the dude's buddy because if that wasn't if you were a wedding photographer and you hired out and did that and you don't have insurance or whatever else man you are in deep doodoo can you imagine the lawsuit on that one and that's the thing and the funny thing is this this is the cash 22 that you bring up okay how are
you going to get insurance up for something that is technically illegal they say they will ensure you on that but I mean I you know again I've come back on that and it's like just in this case here I mean you know technically you could get you know the groom's got a cut-up face you ruined my wedding I spent fifty thousand dollars I want my money back you know he's got trauma anytime he sees a quadcopter
now even on YouTube he he goes into cold sweats he needs medication yada yada I mean you know what I'm saying I mean you could and then is the insurance company going to come in and defend you on it and and pay out you know a million dollars I doubt it they could say what you're doing is illegal that's the catch 22 you're flying in a legal operation therefore there's no way we can ensure you have a nice day
and the other thing is at this point the other point I try to make to people is is there you know ignorance of the law is no excuse and you cannot there is nobody who can say oh I didn't know that this was the the rules plausibly I mean you'd have to be hiding under a rock because there's so much information out there it's not like before but that was one thing you know even this catch 22 you're talking about
I think that was detrimental to the causes a lot of people ran out and said oh I got a letter from an attorney that said it's not illegal I'm good to go remember that guy I do he's got a great big site with a big following with a lot of other guys who know oh I'm the I'm the poobah man I'm the RCA P.
Pooba and there are there people that believe the same thing but the ironic part of that I still throw back the FAA has not really made too many public stands at our at the level we're doing the civilian commercial level they have not done that it's been very difficult to get information from them you have to know where to look for it and we've had times when we've known where to look for it's been difficult
so I think some of that they aren't doing a very good job of getting the word out and people don't believe it unless they you know really can see it in black and white and it's tough it is tough I think they're I think they're not helping this situation yeah I'm like there's a speed limit I equate this to I tell people it's all time you know at the speed limit 60 miles per hour but everybody's running 80
and nobody's there to say hey you know pull you over say you shouldn't be doing this people are going to continue to do it and that's exactly what's happening with this industry there's people that are doing it rogue and you know hey when I get caught I'll stop and it's not what we want it is not what we want and the two things that I want to add to that is one really the the people that have really backed off of doing this are the people that are aviation people one
so you know we talk about this oh it's all about the safety of the NASA do no harm okay well the group of people that you pulled right out are the aviation people they've had to back off because they're the only ones with certificates that is a good point yeah so that is a valid point yeah and and and then the information thing this latest player clarification that they put out does say that you cannot use ac 9157 if
you are a commercial entity because people were saying oh I'm a wreck I'm an amateur amateur is synonymous for well you remember this I remember even in the early days when guys were like oh yeah you can tell your wife that you're making some money with your hobby money because you spent you know five thousand dollars on hobby stuff in the last six months well now you can tell your wife you're making money um
and it's all feel good well the amateur guy is basically a hobbyist who will pick up any money that's there you know that that's his thing but I don't think he they realize the seriousness of what they're doing like the the video that was mentioned I'm an amateur drone guy and I whacked it in my buddy's face so when you guys try I was at a boat race last fall and there was a guy running flying a quadcopter over where they're racing
and he's both running anywhere from 80 to 100 miles per hour plus overcrowded people and you just look at it's gone what is he doing but a lot of people they're they either uh not not so bright or they don't understand um what they're up against and whatever the case well it's kind of like my flight instructor told me he says you can when you fly and you get a bad habit you could probably get away with it 99% of the time
but it's that one percent is your bad habit caught up with you it's going to bite you in the rear end and that rear end people are getting away with it they're not crashing okay the wedding cases an example it did bite him in the rear end but there's a lot of the stuff going on where you know they are getting away with it if you will and and not really having safe practices which really kind of I find scary it is scary it compromises the safety of the nest
so the go forward plan is I think we you know we're running long but the go forward plan in my mind is one thing but I don't want to prejudice that so uh you know maybe maybe one of uh either you Rick or Gene would like to maybe talk about the go forward plan for our Kappa yes sir uh I think that uh we should begin a membership drive again I think we should uh revitalize the website yep if uh if we can contact any of the members the existing members that are out there we should do
so we should re-energize this and we should press ahead with that voice again and I think it's viable also I think gee um Patrick had said too that the people in the industry in general you need to step up a little bit uh the vendors the manufacturers whatever you know that that would add that would help the situation I think a lot versus just individuals as well we want both trust me well we need both
and uh you know it is really I mean even at the A-U-B-S-I thing I had a gentleman beating me up telling me I'm doing it wrong you know I need to go and talk to another G-I-S group and you know they're the ones that are going to break this deal open and they got the juice and they can make it happen and I'm like you know I've heard this before but I mean are you insinuating and it's hard not to come off like a jerk
but I mean I mean are you telling me you're pretty good at that I am people say that but I mean is it like are you telling me it's a jersey sunshine but are you telling me that like I need to go on my own money and my time to go educate another group about what they can do for themselves or me or I mean if you're already a member of this group how come and you're an expert how come you're not educating them
I don't really have a lock on this that's how I kind of tell people I mean I know where all the bones are buried and I've been here for a long time and and all the rest of that but it's a bandwidth issue and that's a lot of you know another thing with the blowtorch thing people go oh he's kind of a blowtorch I don't have unlimited time and money to go talk to people and wait 10 years for for answers
you don't necessarily as we've all pointed out with our cap but we're not we don't have a hidden agenda we're not driven by anything other than trying to get the word out there and make it so people can fly you know we don't have you know big brother behind us supporting us or anything like that I mean we're pretty free if you will and not hamstrung by certain things and I think that's one thing that's good about the group
well I do think that people also have to be a little bit realistic you know remember I mean we have how many times people say well you know you're not really encompassing what I want to do in our kappa you know the proposed guidelines were very good those guidelines went all around the world cap 722 all the rest of that stuff I believe that parts of those were absorbed into other efforts you know
I think people have to be realistic and also you know we can't we can't be everything to everyone I mean we have to try and get crack the door open but as far as objective groups go this one's the only one and I even in my conversation with the associate administrator for aviation safety a month ago I told her you know you have to understand where I'm coming from I'm not trying to sell any airplanes
I'm not trying to do anything besides sell a notion or concept where this business is a business or is viable for small business in the future in the United States end of story yep I'm not I'm not trying to sell global hawks I have 250 million dollars a copy that's that's not my deal I want to you know I used Ted McGeer as an example as a garage tinkerer but you know his aircraft came out of the garage
so when you see like an aeroson or something you go the aeroson it's this program of record yeah yeah yeah it came out of the garage and he you know they made it that's all I'm thinking about for the future of this this industry is aircraft like that guys like that and guys like people that are listening guys and gals whatever that you can do this too that's and that's kind of been the ethos of our capa
you guys agree with that or did I miss it nope no it's always been that way haven't seen we've been very consistent on it so let's move ahead with that same message you know we need to do that and now the other thing is is anybody that doesn't like what I have to say you call Rick like that when that's happened before you've gotten the earful you did to expand on what you were saying a little earlier was kind of interesting a long time ago
well you know when this was kind of cutting-edge stuff it still is but I mean when the whole concept was being kind of people as you say in their garage were coming up with stuff and then doing designs and trickering things out you made a comment to go as soon as that happened in 2007 when the fa kind of said hey it's illegal and and then nothing was happening for a couple years you go well then the Chinese are going to be
you know coming out with the stuff where you could buy it for you know something that could take a picture for a couple hundred bucks and yeah last Christmas I was in Brookstone you could buy one of those gyro copters for 200 bucks I'm not saying it's the best for safe but I mean you could buy one and I think some of the uncertainty with the the faa and and dragging their feet has helped kind of kill that entrepreneur attitude to a certain extent that we would have been further ahead with this technology
and who knows what could have come out from it the last six seven years well we're starting to get a dose of what's what's happening with that technology from overseas because you can fly you know legally in in Europe and and Australia and Japan Japan's got over 14 000 certificated operators so we know what it can do we just need to have a group that has let's say accountability and then they can go
and ask for accountability from the faa so I would say you know stay on the stay on the lookout for changes at RCAPA we're going to try and get things rolling if you want to help out I think you can still join or you can email you can email me patrick at susnews.com or you know can they get a hold of is your email still working through the RCAPA Rick?
I believe so yeah and you want to give that oh canbc at cox.net you can get me directly that way so canbc at cox.net all right and you know anything you'd like to add Gene before we conclude today's program? No I think we've got a clear course and I think that there is going to be some exciting things in store for us and I would encourage people to get involved there's there's always room for more people to get involved
and that many hands make light work that's how I think I would close it all right well Rick you know thanks for coming on and talking with me and Gene oh yeah and the other thing I guess we should have mentioned is Gene is a board member of RCAPA and I am a board member of RCAPA we tried to get Mel Duvall on who is a board member of RCAPA and then also Ira Buckley but both of them had previous engagements Mel was on a vacation going on a vacation to Europe
I tried to get him to cancel but he said no yep well that's good full disclosure exactly and then Ira's working seven days a week so that's okay we'll follow this up in the future Rick we want to get you out of the US USUSB expo next year maybe do a presentation and tell people what we're doing we'll probably do some news stories and whatever else in the future anyway thank you for coming on sir all
right thank you for having me and we'll listen or we'll have I guess talk to everyone next week I did hear on a parting note I did hear that the cracker barrel was possibly in the Smithsonian these days not yet but I'm working on it we did do the TED talk it's pretty good I'll send you the link all right see you all right talk to you later bye